Different schools of teaching on stall and flip

[golfdad]

I am in no position to give my thoughts on this topic, especially with the aid of EBP ala evidence based posting , but I suspect a general overview and discussion of this topic will be of great interest to many golfers.

To me, Kelvin's work is decidedly a new direction with the emphasis on no stalling and flipping. (I understand the word "new" is quite catchy and trendy, but I think in this case, it is appropriate)

It will be helpful if posters can start with some well known schools of teaching in golf and explore their stands on stalling and flipping. Anything goes, since some groups or golfers mix and match. I foresee a lot of points of contention and perhaps this is a good forum for people to vigorously defend and explain their positions.

Perhaps we can start first with the Golf Machine,,,

[kelvin]

I came from the background of Leadbetter where I drank a lot of Lead-based Kool Aid. I did a weekend retreat in 1990 where you hit balls for 8 hours per day and he taught all he could. Mitchell Spearman and Gary Smith were assistants for him at that time. I learned as much about his method as I could. But still could not find the "secrets" to what made his players great.

Met up with old junior golf friend, Don Hurter originally from Hawaii that was a top Lead instructor and became a top 100 golf instructor/writer for Golf Digest. Learned from him a lot more. The secret he described about how the club moved through impact was all about flipping under without letting the clubface close. Must hit the ball with the bounce of the irons striking the ground and not the leading edge.

Developed friendship with another Lead instructor Gilda Hawes who introduced me to Gary Gilchrist. Became friends with him and brought the two to Hawaii to do clinics for the juniors in the state. Even took some promising juniors to IJGA where Gary was for awhile after he left Lead.

So I was in search of the secrets of a guru just as many golf teachers still are. While drinking the Kool Aid, you are a blind follower and teaching things you have no idea how it will affect over the long term. But the difference is that I went to the source to see for myself what was taught and how it was taught. I taught exactly what they taught after a few years of study. But along came Tiger.

After spending 12-13 years learning and teaching the Lead method, the turning point was discussions about Tiger with Gary and Gilda. They could not understand what he was doing so they doubted his swing would work. But after the stretch from 1999 to 2001 where he dominated, I could not make sense of this kind of thinking. I had already begun to study what Tiger was doing and moving away from the Lead method.

If anyone wants to know the real secret to the Lead or Gilchrist method, it's called recruitment. They recruit and give scholarships to top ranked juniors (as has happened with Michelle Wie, In Kyung Kim and others), then give them great places to practice and develop their games. Minor tweaks, then take credit when they win.

In the case of Michelle, this is absolutely the work of Lead and Gary who proceeded to cause deliberate stalling, flipping and quiet legs/feet. The parents of MW get a bad rap, but they want what's best for their daughter. It is her swing coach that has taken all athleticism out of her.

[gatorgolf]

Kelvin do you know why Lead and Gary would teach Michelle to stall and Flip? Do they actually believe this is the best way to swing? I cant understand why they would be teaching her this. BTW you are absolutely right about the recruitment being the key for them. I remember the Song sisters who were dominate when they were about 12 or 13 and got a bunch more instruction from them, and never got much better maybe even worse.

[kelvin]

Gator, they honestly feel this is the best control swing there is. There is no doubt about that. They are very good people. Genuinely out there to help golfers, but it's sort of like Tiger started a revolution of power and control (Nicklaus did too but got taught out of athleticism as well). The only problem is instead of realizing what Tiger has and learn from him, they're sticking to their guns (old knowledge) while the rest of the world passes them by.

Here's another product of the Lead and Gary system. They make great junior golfers and college players by working harder. But in the pros, everyone works hard and at some point the mechanics do matter.

[luke]

Since golfdad asked about different schools of teaching I thought this might interest some...

What is Biomechanics? Biomechanics is the study of the mechanics of a living body. This study fascinated me and I read everything I could find on this subject matter, especially as it pertained to the golf swing. I sought out and trained with a prominent biomechanist(chris welch, a really nice guy btw). My dad and I even built a sand box and I used to practice hitting balls while digging my toes into the dirt while trying to transfer the energy up the feet and legs through the torso and out to the arms and clubhead. The correct sequence from the ground up...the infamous Kinematic sequence. We placed swiss balls between my legs, snapped towels, and even destroyed two impact bags. After shredding my body and wrists I began to question what I was doing..especially since my shots werent any more powerful than before.

I then met Kelvin and read Dr. Gracovetsky's book "The Spine Engine". Was I on the right track finally? Do the elite golfers move from the ground up? Do they brace their bodies? Is it possible that the spine is the engine for all locomotion and spiral patterns are used to create rotations throughout the body? Yes, It is possible.

After studying other motions from elite athletes, namely Albert Pujols, Tim Lincecum, Roger Federer and a few others it became clear that their motions had the same patterns of movement I witnessed while hitting balls with Jamie Sadlowski and John Daly. Were these guys swinging from the ground up? Were these guys digging their feet in? Were these guys bracing? No, No, and guess what, No. My conclusion is that more research needs to be done before we start using training techniques that aren't proven and maybe test some different models.

luke

[golfdad]

Thanks Luke for your interesting post and in particular in reference to the question about swinging from ground up or not,,,short of more studies and research,,,what is your opinion on that,,,swinging from where then? Like, what is your current swing thought if there is such a thing?

[luke]

golfdad, I have some theories on that but we will wait for a later day to discuss. I however feel the downswing is initiated through the pelvic area. specifically APT(Anterior Pelvic Tilt). But, you must be in the correct position to use this in transition..If one stays in or goes into APT on the backswing they will not be in position to use this powerful SSC.

My swing thoughts are very minimal now but that has taken much training and intense study..like the wise sage says,"you have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort."

cheers,

luke

[golfdad]

Now that's deep, Luke:) Hopefully one day you can share with us about your thoughts and training more. And put Jeff to his place!

[luke]

I think it's interesting to hear about others experiences along this journey. What a great forum!! thanks to Jeffy! and I think it would be great for others to share similar stories as the one I posted earlier. whether it is biomechanics, Lead, or whoever...we all have searched for answers and most of us have never recieved any tangible results.

too deep for you? sry, I'll tone it down:)

[walther]

Jan 26, 2012 19:36:02 GMT -5 luke said:

golfdad, I have some theories on that but we will wait for a later day to discuss. I however feel the downswing is initiated through the pelvic area. specifically APT(Anterior Pelvic Tilt). But, you must be in the correct position to use this in transition..If one stays in or goes into APT on the backswing they will not be in position to use this powerful SSC.

What's the pelvic tilt at address for the average hacker?

Do you ever have anyone change their setup for more posterior pelvic tilt or try to add/maintain any posterior/neutral pelvic tilt during the backswing?

w

[clearwater]

Jan 26, 2012 19:36:02 GMT -5 luke said:

golfdad, I have some theories on that but we will wait for a later day to discuss. I however feel the downswing is initiated through the pelvic area. specifically APT(Anterior Pelvic Tilt). But, you must be in the correct position to use this in transition..If one stays in or goes into APT on the backswing they will not be in position to use this powerful SSC.

My swing thoughts are very minimal now but that has taken much training and intense study..like the wise sage says,"you have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort."

cheers,

luke

You clearly have a good teacher

I don't even know many teachers that can articulate the principle as well as you know it!

[Jeff Martin]

Jan 30, 2012 21:02:48 GMT -5 clearwater said:

Jan 26, 2012 19:36:02 GMT -5 luke said:

golfdad, I have some theories on that but we will wait for a later day to discuss. I however feel the downswing is initiated through the pelvic area. specifically APT(Anterior Pelvic Tilt). But, you must be in the correct position to use this in transition..If one stays in or goes into APT on the backswing they will not be in position to use this powerful SSC.

My swing thoughts are very minimal now but that has taken much training and intense study..like the wise sage says,"you have to do all you can do and then learn non-doing, the doing of the non-doing is the greatest doing, and the effort of the effortlessness is the greatest effort."

cheers,

luke

You clearly have a good teacher

I don't even know many teachers that can articulate the principle as well as you know it!

nick-

Lucas IS a teacher, certified by Kelvin!

Jeff

[clearwater]

Well that explains it!

[12piecebucket]

Jan 20, 2012 7:52:32 GMT -5 golfdad said:

I am in no position to give my thoughts on this topic, especially with the aid of EBP ala evidence based posting , but I suspect a general overview and discussion of this topic will be of great interest to many golfers.

To me, Kelvin's work is decidedly a new direction with the emphasis on no stalling and flipping. (I understand the word "new" is quite catchy and trendy, but I think in this case, it is appropriate)

It will be helpful if posters can start with some well known schools of teaching in golf and explore their stands on stalling and flipping. Anything goes, since some groups or golfers mix and match. I foresee a lot of points of contention and perhaps this is a good forum for people to vigorously defend and explain their positions.

Perhaps we can start first with the Golf Machine,,,

You think The Golfing Machine teaches a stall and flip???

[gmbtempe]

Jan 31, 2012 9:16:30 GMT -5 12piecebucket said:

Jan 20, 2012 7:52:32 GMT -5 golfdad said:

I am in no position to give my thoughts on this topic, especially with the aid of EBP ala evidence based posting , but I suspect a general overview and discussion of this topic will be of great interest to many golfers.

To me, Kelvin's work is decidedly a new direction with the emphasis on no stalling and flipping. (I understand the word "new" is quite catchy and trendy, but I think in this case, it is appropriate)

It will be helpful if posters can start with some well known schools of teaching in golf and explore their stands on stalling and flipping. Anything goes, since some groups or golfers mix and match. I foresee a lot of points of contention and perhaps this is a good forum for people to vigorously defend and explain their positions.

Perhaps we can start first with the Golf Machine,,,

You think The Golfing Machine teaches a stall and flip???

I missed that the first time around.