What causes a stall?

[golfdad]

Seen this question asked here and there and it has also popped up in my head.

It seems that many --perhaps more than many-- people stall but they seem to stall differently,,,at different time during the impact for instance... Without Slo mo camera, some may not even know.

How to evaluate stall? Should there be a classification system for it? What are some of the common etiologies? I presume Kelvin's work as a whole is a remedy for it but are there some more specific points that should be addressed with more emphasis?

Thanks!

[gmbtempe]

One thing I am wondering is obviously people stall out of necessity rather than intentionally, at least for the most part....but if they don't know whats causing the stall is trying to correct it more detrimental to their swing then fixing the problem.

If a pro is already pretty good are they going to be willing to address it, might not be any fix.

Well I think of clubface causing stalls, then there are shoulder causing stalls, and surely there are pivot causing stalls.

[Jeff Martin]

Wow! This could be an entire article. As greg points out, there are myriad stalls.

I'll take a crack at listing the main stalls. Kelvin or Lucas can chime in and correct my mistakes.

Lateral hip slide stall:

Fan favorite, uber-cool Vicky Hurst on the left, World Number 1 Luke Donald on the right:



Neither gets good right side lateral bend in the downswing: right shoulder stays high, spine is relatively straight. As a consequence, the "spine gears" never engage and the upper and lower bodies are disconnected. This allows the lower body to "run away" towards the target and the hips don't ever rotate, just run out of gas. Hands both flip and roll over to square the clubface:



Early extension:

Pretty common among amateurs because of the conventional advice to "drive the right knee" and "push off the right side" to start the downswing. Right hip stays in internal rotation and the lateral drive pushes the left leg/hip into early extension. The only option for power is a jump/stall which encourages a right wrist extension/flip. Surprisingly frequent on the LPGA, even by powerful Brittany Lincicome:



Another common stall is a deliberate stalling of the hips to create an "efficient transfer" of energy to the shoulders, arms and club. This type is promoted by "kinetic sequence" gurus such as Zenolink's Chris Welch, who advocates "bracing" the body at impact:



World number 3 Lee Westwood appears to have fallen victim to this type of thinking as has Michelle Wie.

In this sequence, Lee's body hasn't come to a COMPLETE standstill, but it's rotation pales in comparison to Lucas who, at 5' 8" 150 pounds, easily keeps up off the tee with the 6' 200 pound Lee (who trains at a world class level). The body stalling leads to an early extension of the arms and club and a flip at impact.






Here we see 14 year old Michelle explosively using her body, and the current version stalling:



There are even more types of hip stalling, which Kelvin discusses in this article:

www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-04-whats-a-hip-turn-part-2.html

Jeff

[golfdad]

thanks guys.

While we are at it, here are couple more questions:

1. Is a stall associated with a flip? Always? Most likely? May be?

2. In Kelvin's most recent article on shorter shots, he advocates active release/flip/wish there is a better term. Is it an active, conscious move on the part of the arm/wrist or is it secondary to or reacting to hip motion/other aspects of body mechanics? or is this the bracing the body to let arms go through type?

3. I believe drive and hold is not only good for distance but also accuracy since wrist motion is contained. With the recommendation of more wrist motion with shorter irons, there must be a happy medium somewhere with mid irons where there is a balance point between hold and release. How do we reconcile these 2 different types of release in the middle somewhere? It just happens or there needs to be some level of conscious planning ahead of time?

[teeace]

I would say big part causing stall is that club head is on line too early and not dropped behind the player. Our brain knows where it is and scams DONT TURN!!!

Now to Turkey for few days and back at monday evening CET. And no, it's not holiday

[golfdad]

Have a good trip teeace! Is it a cruise?

[gmbtempe]

Is it always associated with a flip?

No, don't think so because if you roll it enough the wrist will stay flat, to me there is stall in Donald but I don't think he flips it but has to roll it like crazy.

[kelvin]

[Jeff Martin]

Jan 19, 2012 12:43:44 GMT -5 kelvin said:

ALL:

THIS is the epitome of a "jeffy golf" post!

Go thou and do likewise!

Thanks to all!

Jeff

[gatorgolf]

Great video Kelvin, very informative thanks for posting it

[golfdad]

Wow, what a great summary and synthesis of things that I should have known already!

Considering the 5 major causes, I think my kid has close to 4!

[gmbtempe]

Sweeeet!

So looking at Brian Gay and DJ, you want left knee to travel target wards and then rotate externally while the pelvis and spine stay relatively static as far as forward slide.

[golfdad]

I think the motion of "left knee to travel target wards" is in itself external rotation.



ps. Thanks for the info about posting pics:)

[Jeff Martin]

I found some interesting pictures from an article Kelvin never published that shows how much Tiger's hip movement changed in 2009. As you will recall, after his 2008 US Open victory, Tiger had knee surgery and was out the rest of the year. When he returned, he was fully "Haney-ized" as Kelvin documented in this article:

www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2009-08-what-would-earl-say.html

One major component of the "transformation" was to adopt a more targetward move of the hips that was sustained, whereas before he pulled the sacrum away from the target in the downswing, facilitating rotation.

Here is Tiger from behind at the 2008 US Open hitting a driver. You can see the sacrum has pulled well back from its position at the top of the backswing.



Here is 2009 Tiger, side-by-side with Jamie Sadlowski, with his hips "piled up" on the left side all the way to impact.



Although his stats held together during 2009, they fell off a cliff in 2010 and Haney was fired on the driving range at the Masters that year. Although 2011 was improved with the irons, it was worse with the driver. And, as we saw in Kelvin's "Causes of stalling" video, Tiger is still stalling with Sean Foley.

Driving distance:

2008 44th
2009 21st
2010 26th
2011 71st

Driving accuracy:

2008 169th
2009 86th
2010 165th
2011 186th

Total driving:

2008 197th
2009 12th
2010 192nd
2011 186th

GIRs:

2008 1st
2009 16th
2010 165th
2011 37th

What were they in 2000?

Driving distance 2nd
Driving accuracy 54th
Total driving 1st
GIR 1st



Jeff

[lifter]

Jan 19, 2012 12:43:44 GMT -5 kelvin said:

Phenomenal. Builds on Kelvin's original articles and video illustrating the Snead Squat!